Female Disruptors: Angelique Schouten of CLEVR On The Three Things You Need To Shake Up Your Industry
An Interview With Candice Georgiadice
Follow your values — if you know what is really important to you, it can be your compass. Everyone’s northstar is different, and your compass can ensure that you guide towards it. Sometimes the decisions you have to make will be hard but remember ‘you only need 30 seconds of bravery throughout your life’ to get through the decision, as my mother always says.
As a part of our series about women who are shaking things up in their industry, I had the pleasure of interviewing Angelique Schouten.
Angelique Schouten has over a decade of experience in retail banking, insurance, asset management, and FinTech. She was responsible for running the first robo-investor in the Netherlands, and was part of the team that built the first bank in the cloud in the world, Ohpen, where the team created a SaaS Cloud Core Banking Engine. Besides that she is the cofounder of two start-ups, Cloudtract and Sportz Guru and has co-authored two bestselling books: the WealthTECH Book and Monkey Money Mind. Angelique currently serves as CEO of low-code and no-code Software-with-a-Service provider CLEVR.
Thank you so much for doing this with us! Before we dig in, our readers would like to get to know you a bit more. Can you tell us a bit about your “backstory”? What led you to this particular career path?
Angelique was born and raised in the south of the Netherlands and her parents always ran their own businesses. From importing Persian carpets from the middle east during the 70’s and 80’s to a cat & dog supply wholesale company. She was taught that if you want to have something, you have to work for it, quitting is never an option, and you learn by falling forward.
From a young age onwards, Angelique has been driven by strong beliefs: Belief in being able to achieve things if you work hard, belief that you can drive change and belief in proving it can be done. She has always been quite determined varying from making a decision at 10 years old to become a vegetarian to working her way to pay for university. She never believed in an impossible mission, and when she graduated, she saw a lot of her fellow students go to traineeships at FMCG companies like Ahold or Heineken. But Angelique was determined to make a difference within the one industry that requires the most change — financial services. Mission impossibles are possible for Angelique, such as helping one of the worst performing insurance companies in terms of customer centricity win the national customer contact center award, turning a stuffy paper-based private bank into a hip digital investment proposition, launching the first robo-investor completely online and in the cloud, building the first multi-tenant core banking platform in the cloud in the world and growing a startup from 0 to 6,000 B2B customers in no time with no marketing budget. She jumped in headfirst.
One of her most recent endeavors was her journey at the first bank in the cloud in the world; Ohpen. From the 80’s onwards, banks have been powered by billions of dollars of infrastructures and semi-failed IT projects delivered by numerous software vendors. Each bank has millions of USD invested in hardware, their own databases, and proprietary legacy software running on top of it. And that for every product setup– savings accounts, mortgages, investment, and current accounts… It was slow performing, lots of outages, hardly any innovation and changes took forever. Everybody just accepted that it was like this, and customers and regulators were very unhappy… The only happy people were the software vendors who were reselling implementations and bespoke software for each and every single product line and bank every single time.
The team of Ohpen, headed by Chris Zadeh, thought this should be undone. And in 2009, Ohpen was founded. Ohpen set out to build the first bank in the cloud in the world. Everything was in the AWS cloud: one core banking engine and one version of the platform supporting all banks, asset managers, insurance companies. It took us 9 months just to get the approval from the regulator. The software was delivered as a product, in a SaaS-model 10 years later. Some largest Financial Services companies operate on this platform with close to $1 billion assets under management.
Since then, cloud technology and SaaS have disrupted the financial services industry with new entrants while existing software vendors are turning their business models upside down. This was the start of a revolution. But most importantly: better products and services for customers.
Ohpen was built using high-code, or software developers writing individual lines of code. From scratch. The result: a high-quality software solution that could outperform any system and never went down (we had an SLA of 100%).
The world’s transition to sustainable digital success where IT becomes the enabler of business owners. By doing so, they placed the power back into the hands of pioneers where the motto is, ‘If you can imagine it, we can make it real’.
Can you tell our readers what it is about the work you’re doing that’s disruptive?
There is another silent revolution, happening in plain sight. The revolution of low-code and no-code (LCNC). LCNC is like using Lego blocks to build your software applications. It is not about writing individual lines of code, but a visual way of building software using a low code platform. We use Mendix, for example, a Dutch company that was acquired by Siemens for over 600 million euros. Just like with cloud computing, Analysts predict an enormous growth in LCNC. Let me give you a real-life example of what I mean.
One of CLEVR’s customers is the City of Rotterdam, with one of the finest skylines of the Netherlands. When the pandemic hit, city officials had many challenges. One these challenges was that they it was difficult during the pandemic to fulfill their council activities anymore where citizens would go to City Hall to register a newborn or marriage. They approached CLEVR for help and together, we created the Digital Desk, an application where citizens use their mobile phone, tablet or desktop to connect to a city worker. It handles government identification, document exchange both ways, payments, chat, FAQ and integrations with other systems. The launching proposition was created in only 8 weeks (where traditional software coding would require months, if not a full year) Over 12.000 video calls, 80 teams with over 400 city workers use it with a customer satisfaction of 8 out of 10.
But let’s say we have 200 consultants working1,500 hours per year. That is 300.000 hours per year. But there are over 350 municipalities in the Netherlands. And a whole lot more in our other target markets. And there are only 15.000 Mendix developers worldwide, of which 7.500 are certified. We cannot run a similar project at even 5% of these towns with 200 developers. So, we asked ourselves, is there a smart, savvy, social and sustainable way? Just imagine the potential if we offered the Digital Desk as a standard product to other municipalities which is driven by fast, reliable and secure LCNC.
At CLEVR we have over 400 customers in 18 countries. Within every single project, we have created standard components: templates, workflows, connectors, app services and full solutions. But as you can see there are plenty of opportunities to create standard components which we help bring to the market in order to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable digital success. Our expert services help with solutions, tooling, support and with the academy we ensure companies can DIY afterwards. All driven by LCNC and Mendix.
A silent revolution happening in plain sight. Just like Cloud did over the past 10 years, LCNC is next. And at CLEVR we shape the LCNC world with our standard components, delivered as a Software with a Service.
Low-code as a concept is taking over, especially during the pandemic and tech talent shortage, when a great need for digital transformation occurred without the means to support it. However, many low code platforms are selling a false promise — that is, citizen developers alone cannot fully digitize their business. This idea that LCNC is not the end-all be-all alone for enterprises that need it disrupts the hype surrounding citizen developers, the idea that most of these platforms promote.
CLEVR’s focus on Software WITH a Service (as opposed to SaaS) supports the idea that experts are needed to supply the knowledge, experience and creative thinking required to take full advantage of the benefits and value of low-code/no-code tools. I believe in building a business based on a strong foundation of values where sustainability and social are at the core.
Can you share a story about the funniest mistake you made when you were first starting? Can you tell us what lesson you learned from that?
I have to admit that I was a little nervous when the moment came for me to interview the godfather of the Modern Portfolio Theory, Professor Dr. Harry Markowitz. He had been so kind to agree that I would interview him for the book that my colleague Chris Zadeh and I wrote about the psychology behind our irrational behavior when it comes to money matters (Monkey Money Mind). We had to make sure we could capture some of his insights and convert it into a valuable contribution to our book.
It was not just me in the interview, but also several colleagues. Carla Martinez (who set up the interview) and Sicco Brakema (who introduced us to Dr. Markowitz), shared the same hint of nervousness for this interview. It is not every day that you get to talk to someone with impressive credentials:
Economist
Recipient of the John van Neumann Theory Prize
Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences
Professor of Finance at the Rady School of Management
Pioneer in Modern Portfolio Theory
And the list goes on…
Dr. Markowitz must have noticed this as he started by casually talking about a previous trip to the Netherlands and before we knew it, he uttered, several perfectly pronounced Dutch words such as “rijsttafel” came our way which made us a bit more at ease.
In the movie, “Mary Poppins Returns,” which stars Emily Blunt as the title character (which she nails), taking care as a nanny of the new generation Banks children, Meryl Streep plays Mary’s eccentric cousin Topsy “a woman who can fix anything”. When Mary visits her cousin with the Banks children, she realizes that it is the second Wednesday of the month. A day dreaded by Topsy as her world literally turns upside down and she is not able to fix anything.
The legendary Mary Poppins stresses that if you change your perspective everything looks better.
Of course, Mary is correct and as the Banks children, Mary and Topsy stand on their head, the world looks much better from that angle. Something that is upside down, is fixed. Turning the second Wednesday of the month into the favourite day for cousin Topsy.
It’s all about changing your perspective.
During the first 45 minutes of the interview, I struggled to ensure that I could convert the experience and knowledge of the brilliant mind of Dr. Markowitz into advice and stories that non-Nobel prize winners could relate to. Giving it my all to keep up with his 91 years of (life) experience and him debating numerous topics he is passionate about:
Critical line algorithm, portfolio theory, sparse matrix methods, simulation language programming (SIMSCRIPT including the Buddy memory allocation method), capital asset pricing model, etc.
As time was ticking, I dreaded more and more that I would fail to take this unique opportunity and convert it into something that I could use for the book which has a more practical and personal approach combined with a touch of research. My excitement about this interview was slowly turning into fear that I would screw it up by not being able to capture a practical lesson learned or piece of advice from Dr. Markowitz who brilliantly debates the most complicated economic theories and models.
So, I was frantically thinking about how I could change my approach to one of the smartest economists in the world so that he would share a piece of advice that would relate to the general public and was in line with the practical direction of our book. But I realized during the interview that this is not something he might generally talk about a lot as everybody probably also assumes he talks about his research and really wants to hear the insights from the godfather of Modern Portfolio Theory in real life (as did I).
Then it hit me: I have to change my own perspective. I should not be discussing his achievements as an economist.
I was talking to a highly intelligent man, and I was trying to get something highly intelligent from this interview. But I realized that I had to adjust my perspective and ask a far simpler question that did not relate to what he would typically talk about:
“What advice would you give a 12-year-old when he or she first received pocket money or money for chores like washing a car or mowing a lawn?
Super simple.
That was it, and I felt the interview turning…Like Aunt Topsy. Dr. Markowitz turned from sharing brilliant, yet very complicated economic explanations, to sharing a deeply personal story with an exceptional piece of advice. A story everyone could relate to and could potentially be inspired by as it did me at that moment. It triggered me, challenged me and made me decide to change certain assumptions I had made for a part of our book, hopefully making it better (I’ll let you be the judge of that when it is published). By changing my perspective, it turned the interview for the better.
Mary Poppins did it again: she came to the rescue and put a smile on my face.
What can the financial services industry and FinTech community learn from Mary Poppins?
After this interview, I realised that I should project this experience more on my daily business, the industry I work in and the people around me. I feel that we have to change our perspective more often.
But the question is: how do we keep making it better?
The answer to me is simple: keep changing our perspectives. You and me, not our professional sides but us as consumers and customers. We are all customers. And a customer is only helped if he grasps what we’re talking about and experiences the benefits (make ’em happy).
My lesson from this unique experience was that when we translate brilliance into simplicity, so all the knowledge, inventions, strategies, theories, jargon we have and change our perspective, we can achieve what we were looking for. For me, it resulted in a valuable piece of information that we can share and hopefully make a difference. So, drop the jargon and think benefits if you want to relate to your customer. Not once, but continuously.
We all need a little help along the journey. Who have been some of your mentors? Can you share a story about how they made an impact?
I believe everyone can be a role model in their own way and have an impact. So, I’ve learned a lot from the people around me. From Chris Zadeh at Ohpen for his relentless focus. From Conny Dorrestijn how she makes a true connection with people around her. From my mom’s incredible drive to learn and work, who actually came up with the name of our company, CLEVR, and from Esther Vis with whom I work. She has shown tremendous leadership in the diversity and sustainability discussions we have had with our team. I also tend to learn a lot from people who embrace what makes them unique.
One example is Manon van der Lely, who coached me during my early career when I was climbing the career ladder at a large international financial institution. She challenged me to really look at who I was in my core and what drives me. What are your core values? Your compass that guides you and the decisions you make? During a 6-month period we had extensive conversations and I ended up writing down what my 3 core values were: ambitious, caring and brave-hearted. II felt liberated speaking these values out loud. In fact, they became my compass.
When I was at a crossroad at the company, about to be promoted to an amazing role — I quit. In the elevator. I had been thinking about it for a long time but mapping my decision on my core values allowed me to find a company where I was closer to the fire and have a direct impact. The HR department warned me that I was throwing away my career, that I did not see the opportunity before me. However, it was one of the key decisions in my life, driven by my core values, so I felt I could trust my instinct. Manon guided me towards my own core, and these values still guide me today.
In today’s parlance, being disruptive is usually a positive adjective. But is disrupting always good? When do we say the converse, that a system or structure has ‘withstood the test of time’? Can you articulate to our readers when disrupting an industry is positive, and when disrupting an industry is ‘not so positive’? Can you share some examples of what you mean?
To be honest the word, “disruption” has become a bit of a hype word and I prefer to focus more on having an impact as every person, every business, every organization can have an impact. Whether it is a big or small impact, all incremental changes combined will create a movement.
Can you share 2 of the best words of advice you’ve gotten along your journey? Please give a story or example for each.
Do more with less –
When I worked at Ohpen, the world’s first core banking platform completely in the cloud — I went to the UK to set up the company there. For this we needed to obtain our license from the UK regulator. That lasted just over 6 months; a record for British standards. We approached this not as techies, but really as bankers, with a super-tight business plan and by showing what control mechanisms we had. Thorough, but fast — that builds trust, because you see fintech startups popping up everywhere and storming the market without getting everything in order. Banks outsource to us, so we are subject to the same strict requirements. At the same time, we needed to sign new customers, but it was hard to convince Brits that outsourcing to a Dutch company is the way to go. We have therefore done something unusual. After we received the permit in January, we were in a state of jubilation. But London is quite a gray city in the winter. People prefer to go home as soon as possible. What is good Dutch, I wondered. I decided to send the bosses of our top 50 prospects a bunch of tulips, with a handwritten note saying: we are ready, and we are going to give more color to this industry and the country. Our second multi-million customer in England came from a bouquet of tulips of 13.50 pounds.’ This shows that you do not always need big sales teams or marketing budgets, something that is unique, distinct and to the point will get you a long way.
Follow your values — if you know what is really important to you, it can be your compass. Everyone’s northstar is different, and your compass can ensure that you guide towards it. Sometimes the decisions you have to make will be hard but remember ‘you only need 30 seconds of bravery throughout your life’ to get through the decision, as my mother always says.
We are sure you aren’t done. How are you going to shake things up next?
Scaling our LCNC business internationally driven by an infinite goal to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable digital success. To truly make an impact, we need to work together as an ecosystem. Be smart, savvy, social and sustainable to create a lasting impact. Low-code and no-code platforms like Mendix, help us accelerate organizations transformation into more long-term, future-proof and impactful organizations. The entire ecosystem can contribute, from platforms, to customers, their customers, tech companies, educators.
In your opinion, what are the biggest challenges faced by ‘women disruptors’ that aren’t typically faced by their male counterparts?
Handling bias, especially if you have a vision and are focused on achieving this.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/fab-40s-journey-diversity-finding-out-fitting-all-angelique-schouten/
Do you have a book/podcast/talk that’s had a deep impact on your thinking? Can you share a story with us?
Besides paddle boarding with my dog, kickboxing or Yin Yoga, reading helps me become better. Books ranging from sports, to special forces or business books. I could not pick just one book, but some of my favourite are: “Losing My Virginity” by Richard Branson, Lean In by Sheryl Sandberg, Seal Team Six by Howard (see below), I am Zlatan by Zlatan Ibrahimovic and Legacy by James Kerr.
You are a person of great influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. 🙂
Consider sustainability an investment in ourselves and the world. Consider it the new real estate investment and as a business you should look into it and determine what you can do (everyone can contribute and hopefully will).
Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Can you share how that was relevant to you in your life?
“Life is not about fitting in, it is about standing out.”
Sometimes in the beginning of your career, you are walking the path you’re expected to walk. I have always been an outlier: very tall, loved playing outdoors and climbing trees. I did not feel at home within one group of friends, instead, I was comfortable in multiple groups. I liked computers and making things. When I started working both IT and commercial topics appealed equally to me and I found out that I sometimes perceived the world around me differently. When my career progressed, I embraced that I was an outlier. I became comfortable that being an outlier is a strength.
21 years ago, at the age of 21, I moved to the south of Egypt for my first managerial role. On day 1, one of the men in my team said, ‘I do not take orders from women’. He made a conscious decision to not be inclusive. It shocked me. But I made an effort to understand what it was to be inclusive of his point of view. And he did as well, after that first day. When I left Egypt, he was one of my most valued colleagues.
Without debating his standpoint or mine, I would like to quote Commander Spock from Star Trek (including a creative add on from yours truly):
“Infinite diversity in infinite combinations, symbolizing the elements that create truth, beauty, creativity and tangible results.”
Diversity and inclusion is important for me as a person and for the growth of this company. A diverse mix of voices leads to better discussions, decisions and outcomes for everyone.
It is important to have different perspectives in our company. To truly be a representation of the outside world. To challenge one’s own perspective. To learn, to grow and to exceed expectations. Of each other, of our clients, of their customers. It is all about having the right mentality. More diverse opinions, standing out and challenging, can create movements.
How can our readers follow you online?
LinkedIn / angeliqueschouten
Instagram / angelique4real
Twitter / angelique4real
CLEVR.com
This was very inspiring. Thank you so much for joining us!
Female Disruptors: Angelique Schouten of CLEVR On The Three Things You Need To Shake Up Your… was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.